Corto, así quedó el debate del jueves 21 de noviembre con Ricardo García,
nos faltó tiempo para abordar todas las dudas, cuestiones e interrogantes referidos
a los desafíos de la gestión pública de la religión. Ricardo García,
subdirector de relaciones con las confesiones, nos expuso, las diversas
cuestiones que hoy afectan a la libertad religiosa. Su energía y entusiasmo nos
envolvió a todos a lo largo de las casi 2 horas que estuvimos debatiendo sobre
un tema que él mismo define como “complejo, muy complejo”.
nos faltó tiempo para abordar todas las dudas, cuestiones e interrogantes referidos
a los desafíos de la gestión pública de la religión. Ricardo García,
subdirector de relaciones con las confesiones, nos expuso, las diversas
cuestiones que hoy afectan a la libertad religiosa. Su energía y entusiasmo nos
envolvió a todos a lo largo de las casi 2 horas que estuvimos debatiendo sobre
un tema que él mismo define como “complejo, muy complejo”.
Inmersos en un dinamismo, por medio de ejemplos varios y con mucho sentido
del humor abordamos la realidad de la libertad religiosa, desde su perspectiva más
jurídica que el propio Ricardo afirma que “desde el derecho se aborda la
realidad cuando los conflictos ya han surgido (…) los juristas vamos por detrás
de la realidad, cuando ya tenemos la realidad es cuando tenemos que juridificar”
del humor abordamos la realidad de la libertad religiosa, desde su perspectiva más
jurídica que el propio Ricardo afirma que “desde el derecho se aborda la
realidad cuando los conflictos ya han surgido (…) los juristas vamos por detrás
de la realidad, cuando ya tenemos la realidad es cuando tenemos que juridificar”
En tono bromista nos comenta que que aún hoy día tiene dificultades para
explicar qué hace como subdirector de relaciones con las confesiones –órgano
enclavado dentro del Ministerio de Justicia-, nos resume las competencias de la
subdirección general de la siguiente manera:
explicar qué hace como subdirector de relaciones con las confesiones –órgano
enclavado dentro del Ministerio de Justicia-, nos resume las competencias de la
subdirección general de la siguiente manera:
- Dos funciones del Registro de Entidades
Religiosas. Por un lado dar fe pública y por otra parte la función constitutiva. - Comisión Asesora de libertad religiosa. Es el máximo órgano asesor con el que cuenta el
gobierno –va a tener una reforma muy cercana en el tiempo que va a hacer que
sea abierto no sólo al gobierno sino a cualquier administración pública que quiera
dirigirse a dicha comisión- Tiene una división tripartita y paritaria: los
distintos departamentos ministeriales que conforman los distintos departamentos
ministeriales del gobierno del Estado Español, los representantes de las
propias confesiones religiosas –sólo los que tengan notorio arraigo- y los diversos
expertos en materia de libertad religiosa. Órgano que funciona democráticamente
y supone la posibilidad de que las confesiones religiosas tengan voz. - Colaboración y cooperación con las diferentes
entidades religiosas. Estar
presentes en el conocimiento de la problemática que pudieran tener. - Gestión del pluralismo religioso
- La
posibilidad de establecer líneas de
investigación en cuestión de libertad religiosa. - Relaciones internacionales en materia de libertad
religiosa.
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Además de estas competencias, en este momento se está trabajando en dosnecesidades especialmente relevantes: por un lado, en el desarrollo y modernización de la comisión asesora de libertad religiosa.
A través del acercamiento a las confesiones religiosas de la ley de la administración
electrónica en España, modernización de determinadas estructuras que permitan
en contacto más directo con las confesiones religiosas, digitalización de expediente, etc. Y por otro
lado la modernización de la legislación
que regula el tratamiento del Registro de Entidades Religiosas, de cara a poder
contar con un registro real, que nos describa cuál es la realidad del mapa
religioso que tenemos en este país.
Nos comenta que la libertad religiosa es un “derecho fundamental que está absolutamente de moda en las instituciones
europeas”. Actualmente están trabajando Naciones Unidas, la OSCE,
determinados organismos internacionales. Nos informa que el Estado Español ha sido
puntero en esta materia, no sólo creando la alianza de civilizaciones, sino que
se está participando en todas las iniciativas de diálogo interreligioso e
intercultural que se están realizando con fuerza en este momento en el mundo.
En esta línea, la semana pasada estuvo en Viena en lo que se llama el KAICIID -centro de diálogo intercultural e interreligioso
rey Abdullah, creado directamente por España, Arabia Saudí y Viena- se trata de un lugar de diálogo interreligioso
y cultural que une diferentes tradiciones, formas de ver la vida para trabajar
por el diálogo interreligioso e intercultural.
europeas”. Actualmente están trabajando Naciones Unidas, la OSCE,
determinados organismos internacionales. Nos informa que el Estado Español ha sido
puntero en esta materia, no sólo creando la alianza de civilizaciones, sino que
se está participando en todas las iniciativas de diálogo interreligioso e
intercultural que se están realizando con fuerza en este momento en el mundo.
En esta línea, la semana pasada estuvo en Viena en lo que se llama el KAICIID -centro de diálogo intercultural e interreligioso
rey Abdullah, creado directamente por España, Arabia Saudí y Viena- se trata de un lugar de diálogo interreligioso
y cultural que une diferentes tradiciones, formas de ver la vida para trabajar
por el diálogo interreligioso e intercultural.
Nos da cuenta de que en España hay un problema importante a la hora de cuantificar el número de creyentes que
hay de cada una de las confesiones religiosas ya que si se pregunta a las
propias religiones el problema se tiene al maximus, llegando a multiplicarse la
población del Estado Español sólo con personas creyentes. Así hoy día no se
conoce exactamente el número de personas que conforman cada una de las
religiones, habiendo una gran diferencia de horquilla de una cifra a otra
dependiendo del organismo que facilite los números. Ante la pregunta ¿es importante conocer el número de
creyentes que conforman cada religión? Ricardo es rotundo en su respuesta: sí
y no.
hay de cada una de las confesiones religiosas ya que si se pregunta a las
propias religiones el problema se tiene al maximus, llegando a multiplicarse la
población del Estado Español sólo con personas creyentes. Así hoy día no se
conoce exactamente el número de personas que conforman cada una de las
religiones, habiendo una gran diferencia de horquilla de una cifra a otra
dependiendo del organismo que facilite los números. Ante la pregunta ¿es importante conocer el número de
creyentes que conforman cada religión? Ricardo es rotundo en su respuesta: sí
y no.
En su respuesta negativa nos explica que no es importante en el sentido que
al tratarse de un derecho fundamental
–la libertad religiosa-, aunque tan sólo fuera una persona, existe el derecho a
asegurar su propia creencia religiosa. Por tanto, de cara a tener un marco
jurídico que recoja toda la protección jurídica tuitiva que tiene que
tener el ejercicio de un derecho
fundamental, no es importante ya que hay que garantizar que aquellas personas
que quieran vivir su religiosidad puedan hacerlo.
al tratarse de un derecho fundamental
–la libertad religiosa-, aunque tan sólo fuera una persona, existe el derecho a
asegurar su propia creencia religiosa. Por tanto, de cara a tener un marco
jurídico que recoja toda la protección jurídica tuitiva que tiene que
tener el ejercicio de un derecho
fundamental, no es importante ya que hay que garantizar que aquellas personas
que quieran vivir su religiosidad puedan hacerlo.
No obstante, en su respuesta afirmativa nos habla de la relevancia para la gestión pública. En este sentido sí
resulta importante conocer de qué colectivo hablamos. Ya que por ejemplo, si a un alcalde le piden abrir un templo budista no
estaría mal saber el número de budistas que hay en Madrid.
resulta importante conocer de qué colectivo hablamos. Ya que por ejemplo, si a un alcalde le piden abrir un templo budista no
estaría mal saber el número de budistas que hay en Madrid.
Así afirma que se ha confundido una
garantía jurídica, que establecía la propia constitución, con la consecuencia. La garantía de que
nadie podrá ser interrogado sobre su creencia religiosa, se ha confundido con
el hecho de que no se pueda preguntar. Sí se puede preguntar lo que no puede
tener, en ningún caso, es consecuencia jurídica en el caso que no se responda. “No
se me asalta porque se me pregunte, se me asalta porque tenga consecuencias
negativas porque no responda” comenta en tono distendido.
garantía jurídica, que establecía la propia constitución, con la consecuencia. La garantía de que
nadie podrá ser interrogado sobre su creencia religiosa, se ha confundido con
el hecho de que no se pueda preguntar. Sí se puede preguntar lo que no puede
tener, en ningún caso, es consecuencia jurídica en el caso que no se responda. “No
se me asalta porque se me pregunte, se me asalta porque tenga consecuencias
negativas porque no responda” comenta en tono distendido.
“Vitalidad y músculo” así define la diversidad religiosa de la que damuestra el Registro de Entidades Religiosas, pese a la dificultad a la hora de
cuantificar el número de creyentes. En el Registro hay alrededor de 12.000
realidades distintas inscritas.
Nos comenta que en los años 80 se hablaba mucho de un proceso de
secularización –desreligiosidad de la sociedad- los comienzos del siglo XXI. se
está caracterizando por lo contrario, una vuelta
a lo religioso, a buscar valores habiendo un pluralismo bastante importante
–aún con la dificultad de datos para su cuantificación-. No obstante no se debe
olvidar un principio importantísimo, el
principio de aconfesionalidad del estado que dice que ninguna confesión tendrá
carácter estatal –laicidad positiva- que implica por parte de todas las
administraciones del estado no se puede ver de manera distinta a la iglesia
católica o a otra confesión que venga de Filipinas, Perú o Islandia por ejemplo.
Lo que hay que aplicar es el derecho a la hora de aplicar los límites a la hora
de registrar esa entidad religiosa verificando si las prácticas puntuales, si
los estatutos que presentan al registro vulneran o no los principios que están
establecidos. Cuando se vulneran no se pueden registrar dichas confesiones.
secularización –desreligiosidad de la sociedad- los comienzos del siglo XXI. se
está caracterizando por lo contrario, una vuelta
a lo religioso, a buscar valores habiendo un pluralismo bastante importante
–aún con la dificultad de datos para su cuantificación-. No obstante no se debe
olvidar un principio importantísimo, el
principio de aconfesionalidad del estado que dice que ninguna confesión tendrá
carácter estatal –laicidad positiva- que implica por parte de todas las
administraciones del estado no se puede ver de manera distinta a la iglesia
católica o a otra confesión que venga de Filipinas, Perú o Islandia por ejemplo.
Lo que hay que aplicar es el derecho a la hora de aplicar los límites a la hora
de registrar esa entidad religiosa verificando si las prácticas puntuales, si
los estatutos que presentan al registro vulneran o no los principios que están
establecidos. Cuando se vulneran no se pueden registrar dichas confesiones.
Entre libertad, derecho, religión y confesión nos sorprende con la noticia
de que se van a modificar varios
artículos del código penal, entre ellos el 510 que habla de los delitos de odio. Así, se establece una mayor penalidad para
aquellos autores de delitos de odio y se establecen también determinadas
cautelas que permiten poner penas a aquellas personas jurídicas, se establece también
el secuestro de comunicaciones -incluso
páginas web, redes sociales y demás- que inciten al odio a la discriminación
contra minorías, y en este caso las minorías religiosas.
de que se van a modificar varios
artículos del código penal, entre ellos el 510 que habla de los delitos de odio. Así, se establece una mayor penalidad para
aquellos autores de delitos de odio y se establecen también determinadas
cautelas que permiten poner penas a aquellas personas jurídicas, se establece también
el secuestro de comunicaciones -incluso
páginas web, redes sociales y demás- que inciten al odio a la discriminación
contra minorías, y en este caso las minorías religiosas.
Al hilo de esta noticia surge un debate en torno a los delitos a la ofensa a los sentimientos religiosos -525 y
siguientes- ya que en el ejercicio de los
derechos fundamentales –entre los que se encuentra el religioso-, en ocasiones
hay límites explícitos que se recogen en las leyes y en los ordenamientos
jurídicos pero en otras ocasiones los límites son más difusos.
siguientes- ya que en el ejercicio de los
derechos fundamentales –entre los que se encuentra el religioso-, en ocasiones
hay límites explícitos que se recogen en las leyes y en los ordenamientos
jurídicos pero en otras ocasiones los límites son más difusos.
Aquí aparece, la libertad religiosa
en límite con la libertad de expresión,
el conflicto está servido. Pongamos el ejemplo de una colección de fotografías
en las que una mujer vestida de virgen muestra un pecho,¿es arte? ¿es libertad
de expresión? ¿es ofensa religiosa?, Ricardo se muestra partidario de ir viendo
y analizando caso a caso, teniendo en
cuenta el contexto social. En este sentido, afirma que es importante tener en
cuenta y preguntarse “¿cuál es el interés que se persigue? ¿Cuál es la
finalidad que se tiene con la obra, la información etc.? ¿artística? ¿de
provocación?”
en límite con la libertad de expresión,
el conflicto está servido. Pongamos el ejemplo de una colección de fotografías
en las que una mujer vestida de virgen muestra un pecho,¿es arte? ¿es libertad
de expresión? ¿es ofensa religiosa?, Ricardo se muestra partidario de ir viendo
y analizando caso a caso, teniendo en
cuenta el contexto social. En este sentido, afirma que es importante tener en
cuenta y preguntarse “¿cuál es el interés que se persigue? ¿Cuál es la
finalidad que se tiene con la obra, la información etc.? ¿artística? ¿de
provocación?”
En cuanto a la pregunta de ¿qué paso
con el borrador de creencias y libertad de conciencia del gobierno anterior? La
respuesta es rotunda “está parado la opinión que se maneja ahora es que la
prioridad que hay que hacer en este momento en este país no es una nueva ley de
libertad religiosa.” Afirma que la ley que se maneja actualmente “recoge
perfectamente todo el derecho fundamental de libertad religiosa y que hay que
interpretarla en función al artículo 10.2 de la Constitución”. Nos explica que
la interpretación al hilo del 10.2 dice que serán interpretados conforme a los
tratados internacionales suscritos por España y en especial a la convención de
derechos humanos y al tribunal de derechos humanos. Eso significa que una ley
orgánica que tiene 8 artículos no solo tiene el texto de la ley, sino que hay
que interpretarlo de forma que la interpretación la tenemos por dos sitios: por
el tribunal constitucional español y por el tribunal europeo de derechos
humanos –este último se ha mencionado en materia de libertad religiosa en
múltiples ocasiones-. Así, nos comenta que “No somos amigos tanto de una nueva
ley de libertad religiosa sino de aplicación de la que tenemos e ir viendo en
lo que tenemos qué tenemos que arreglar. No vamos a modificar la ley, nos vale
con que la gente la sepa”.
con el borrador de creencias y libertad de conciencia del gobierno anterior? La
respuesta es rotunda “está parado la opinión que se maneja ahora es que la
prioridad que hay que hacer en este momento en este país no es una nueva ley de
libertad religiosa.” Afirma que la ley que se maneja actualmente “recoge
perfectamente todo el derecho fundamental de libertad religiosa y que hay que
interpretarla en función al artículo 10.2 de la Constitución”. Nos explica que
la interpretación al hilo del 10.2 dice que serán interpretados conforme a los
tratados internacionales suscritos por España y en especial a la convención de
derechos humanos y al tribunal de derechos humanos. Eso significa que una ley
orgánica que tiene 8 artículos no solo tiene el texto de la ley, sino que hay
que interpretarlo de forma que la interpretación la tenemos por dos sitios: por
el tribunal constitucional español y por el tribunal europeo de derechos
humanos –este último se ha mencionado en materia de libertad religiosa en
múltiples ocasiones-. Así, nos comenta que “No somos amigos tanto de una nueva
ley de libertad religiosa sino de aplicación de la que tenemos e ir viendo en
lo que tenemos qué tenemos que arreglar. No vamos a modificar la ley, nos vale
con que la gente la sepa”.
No podía quedar fuera del debate el tema de la salud pública y sus límites en relación con la espiritualidad. En
cuanto al tema de la ayahuasca lo tiene claro “uno de los límites claros de la
ley orgánica de libertad religiosa es la salud y la salud pública”. Así, si “una
sustancia está prohibida no hay más que hablar, no van a poder inscribirse en
el registro, es la ley”.
cuanto al tema de la ayahuasca lo tiene claro “uno de los límites claros de la
ley orgánica de libertad religiosa es la salud y la salud pública”. Así, si “una
sustancia está prohibida no hay más que hablar, no van a poder inscribirse en
el registro, es la ley”.
En cuanto al tema de la cotización a
la seguridad social por parte de los ministros de culto, nos cuenta que ha
habido múltiples negociaciones, modificaciones de diversas leyes, acuerdos etc.
pero que hoy día “aquellos que han pedido estar en la seguridad social están,
sólo han tenido que pedir estarlo porque la seguridad social ha negociado con
ellos. Las cosas se van arreglando, con sensibilización y normalización”. Afirma
que es necesario defender el derecho a la libertad religiosa ya que una persona
que quiere acudir a un culto, cuando va al culto tiene que haber un espacio
físico, necesita que haya alguien que oficie la ceremonia y eso, hay que
salvaguardarlo.
la seguridad social por parte de los ministros de culto, nos cuenta que ha
habido múltiples negociaciones, modificaciones de diversas leyes, acuerdos etc.
pero que hoy día “aquellos que han pedido estar en la seguridad social están,
sólo han tenido que pedir estarlo porque la seguridad social ha negociado con
ellos. Las cosas se van arreglando, con sensibilización y normalización”. Afirma
que es necesario defender el derecho a la libertad religiosa ya que una persona
que quiere acudir a un culto, cuando va al culto tiene que haber un espacio
físico, necesita que haya alguien que oficie la ceremonia y eso, hay que
salvaguardarlo.
Breve, intenso y enriquecedor, así podríamos resumir el encuentro con Ricardo García.
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